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We the People: Our Collective Work
Keynote Address: Diana Aviv, President and CEO
INDEPENDENT SECTOR Annual Conference,
Chicago
Monday, November 8, 2004 |
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We have gathered here at an especially uncertain time, in the
aftermath of one of the most intensely fought election campaigns in
the history of the Republic, as the nation holds its breath while
awaiting the next chapter in its political history. It is an
in-between time, but whether it is a time just before sunset or just
before sunrise we cannot yet say. For some of our citizens, it is a
time of celebration, for others, of apprehension.
And for us, it is a time to take stock, to set our course for the
days and weeks to come. For ours, as I need not remind you, is the
independent sector. It is not polls or even elections that establish
our priorities; we speak in our own name, no more than that but no
less. Our actions are not fixed solely by officials appointed or
elected; it is our own wisdom and our own conscience and experience
that guide us. And how rich the stream of benefits that has flowed
to our nation and to the world from the investments we have made,
the directions we have chosen. While the public and the media focus
mainly these days on the policies and workings of government, we are
not merely a footnote to the history of our times; the nearly one
and a half million organizations that comprise the independent
sector, the 12 million people who work for nonprofit organizations,
the two trillion dollars in assets of our public charities and
private foundationsthese, from the most global of our foundations
to the most modest of our nonprofit agencies, are where as much as
anywhere the history of our times is written. From the concert hall
to the soup kitchen, from the church pulpit to the public square, it
is our choices and our initiatives that shape our nation’s culture,
help inform its aspirations, transform the promise of freedom and
opportunity into a way of life for our nation, for its people.
So: Gathered as we are in this great city, at this anxious and in
some ways fearful time, what can we say of the work that awaits us?
I want to talk with you today about three related matters. The first
is the role of government; the second the role of the nonprofit
sector relative to government and the people; and the third is the
ethical imperative that underlies and overridesor shouldeverything
we do and the great opportunity that is before us, if only we seize
it.
“Government,” Adlai Stevenson said back in 1948, “is more than the
sum of all the interests; it is the paramount interest, the public
interest. It must be the efficient, effective agent of a responsible
citizenry, not the shelter of the incompetent and corrupt.”
Stevenson, in his own time, was widely criticized for what many saw
as his naiveté. There were those who thought him too much the
idealist, Eleanor Roosevelt in pants. Yet what he said about
government was both wise and challenging. Government “is the
paramount interest, the public interest.” But how, in the end, do we
determine the public interest? How, do we define the public good?
And where do we find, how do we encourage, what Stevenson called “a
responsible citizenry?” Is it not in the rough and tumble of
political debate that the working definition is made manifest? Is
it, can it be, anywhere but in the grand chambers of our Congress,
in the state capitols, in our city halls, where fallible women and
men, informed by the perspectives and preferences of their
constituents, battle their way towards the policies that assert what
is, for the moment, their best approximation of the public interest?
But: this description of how in fact the public interest is
definednot as the expression of some top-down Platonic ideal but as
the result of a bottom-up clash of competing interestsleaves far
too much unsaid. For even if there is no revealed definition of the
public interest to which we all assent, and even if such noble
phrases as “by the people” and “for the people” are not
self-defining, free and democratic government does rest on some
bedrock assumptions. It requires a reasonably informed and a
reasonably engaged citizenry. It depends on high-minded
representatives, women and men of real probity. In a red-state and
blue-state America, consensus may be very nearly impossible, but
compromisethoughtful compromise, not the kind of compromise that
rests on you getting your share and me getting mine, not on
log-rolling and pork-barrels, but on mutual respect, on a passion
for inclusiveness, on a recognition that democratic government is
defined even more by its process than by its productcompromise must
be possible.
Our distance from these bedrock assumptions has brought us to this
unsettled time. Ask America’s citizens today whether they trust the
nation’s government to define the public interest, and I dare say
the response will be overwhelmingly in the negative. Madison and
Jefferson understood that “factions,” as they called them, were
unavoidable. In their inclination to prevent a few powerful
individuals and groups from using government to promote their own
interests, the Founding Fathers created a framework for widespread
citizen participation, viewing that as the best way to protect the
public interest. But most Americans, it seems to me, do not perceive
government to be functioning in this manner, even though they hope
for a public sector less subject to the corruptions of ambition, of
money, of partisan loyalties, of insiderism, of arrogance, of “K
Street” lobbyists, of all the other pitfalls that mark the work of
government as they know it today.
It is difficult in the extreme to connect the dots that lie
scattered between the grand themes of justice and equity, of
opportunity and creativity on the one hand and, on the other, the
distortions of policy and legislation that derive, as do ours
increasingly, from private interest lobbying and personal profit and
gain. These jarring realities render the noble idea of “the consent
of the governed” a feel-good slogan rather than an operational
imperative; they make a mockery of “government of, by, and for the
people.”
And the questions of how legislation is crafted and how, thereby,
the public interest is asserted, interesting though they may be, are
not by any means the most urgent ones that are these days raised
when we speak of government and its role. The most urgent questions
have to do with the very purposes of democratic government, with the
scope and the responsibilities of government.
One of the unanticipated and dangerous aspects of the contemporary
conception of government and its role is that very many of us,
citizens and leaders alike, have come to see government and the
people as if they were in an adversarial relationship. There is the
government, and here are the people, and the challenge to the people
is to keep government and its deadening hand at a distance. That is
a very far cry from government as the agent of “we, the people.” As
a consequence, we now hear far too many candidates for public office
running against the government they seek to manage or setting out to
“starve the beast.” Not long ago, and not in a clandestine,
subversive gathering but in broad daylight, on NPR, Grover Norquist,
leader of Americans for Tax Reform, put it this way: “I don't want
to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where
I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub.” And
the plan? Four years ago this influential leader said, “Cutting the
government in half in one generation is both an ambitious and
reasonable goal. If we work hard we will accomplish this and more by
2025. Then…. I have a recommendation: To cut government in half
again by 2050.”
But even far away from the anti-government extreme, too many have
come to see government and its functions as a burden on the rest of
us. So they speak of the “tax burden,” a rather curious way to
describe the system through which we build our highways and our
schools, defend the nation, inspect our food and medicines, support
exploration of our solar system, and so on and so forth. We never
speak of the highway burden, or the public safety burden, yet we
speak quite casually of the “tax burden” that enables us to build
and repair highways and to protect our communities.
All of which is not to suggest that government is a pleasant
carousel, a day in the park. Government is mostly not nimble, not
always efficient, and seldom innovative. Indeed, that is in a sense
how we want it, a system of checks and balances and Inspectors
General to ensure that government is honest and fair, that it is not
about deal-making, not about the private interests of the governors
but about the public interest they are sworn to defend and protect.
So the bureaucracy is typically slow and even cumbersome. Yes, there
is too much paperwork, yes there is inadequate coordination among
often balkanized departments and, yes, the bureaucracy is sometimes
high-handed.
But I trust that many of you know, as I assuredly do, public
servants of genuine distinction, men and women who are devoted to
the public interest, whose efficiency and effectiveness easily match
the efficiency and effectiveness of their counterparts in the
private sector and whose honesty and empathy are exemplary. Recall
the heroic work of New York City’s firefighters in her darkest hours
after the attack on the Twin Towers, the Coast Guard who rescue
those daring to reach for the American dream, and teachers in our
public schools who work with our most disadvantaged children, all
this for salaries that are or ought to be a public embarrassment.
There is not a corner of our lives, of our corridors and fields that
is not affected by the extraordinary work of government, every day,
every week, every year.
The notion we hear from some quarters, that solutions to society’s
challenges can best be handled by the private sector particularly
where the public has failed is without foundation. Fifty or a
hundred years agosome tens of thousands of MBAs agoAmericans
thought of the corporate world, in part, as a world of greed, of
robber barons and polluters. Government was seen as the necessary
corrective to corporate excess. Citizens wanted change and the
government installed welcome limits, though some say the job is not
yet done. Nevertheless, the tables have been turned, and those who
preferred the invisible hand of the private sector to the sometimes
all-too-visible hand of government have advanced the doctrine of
privatization. Their response to government’s flaws, government’s
systems in-need-of-repair has not been to scrutinize and improve,
but to privatize. Privatize our prisons? Our schools? Our security
services and even our intelligence services? No matter that the
bottom line of the marketplace is a distribution of cash dividends
for its shareholders and not to provide for society’s needs. No
matter that the marketplace seeks efficiencies to maximize profits
for individuals rather than serving the common welfare. Why else do
we face a severe shortage of flu vaccinations if not for a
marketplace that does not see enough profit in producing what
America needs to prevent an epidemic?
This transfer of public responsibility continues stillas if the
very idea of government were simply wrong, as if there are no
essential functions that belong in the public domain. But surely
government is meant to be more than our communal letter of
contracts, surely profit cannot be the only motive for assuming
civic responsibilitynot for a whole array of functions we deem
essential to building strong communities.
In fact, is our own sector not evidence that profit is not the only
motive that moves people to social responsibility? For two centuries
now, we have ourselves performed, willingly and even eagerly, a
variety of services that have served the public and complemented the
work of government, services that have contributed in major ways to
creating and sustaining what most would agree are core ingredients
of a decent society.
My purpose in saying these things is not to beat the drum for big
government, though it is hard to see how a government of nearly 300
million people can be anything but big. Nor is it to suggest that
government ought to run every program and service communities want
or need. My purpose, as quixotic as it may seem, is to affirm the
essential value of government, regardless of who is in office, to
help restore the dignity of government and, above all, to repair the
partnership between the people and their government.
Whether one starts from Hobbes in 1651 and views government as the
necessary antidote to our base instincts, or the individualism of
which Locke wrote in 1690, of government as the means to protect
life, liberty and property, or with Rousseau in 1762 and the idea of
government as the necessary antidote to anarchy, as a contract
between the people and their governorsor for that matter, with the
man who reinvented America, with Abraham Lincoln who authored a new
birth of freedom and declared the sacred purpose of this nation to
be that all men are created equal, and that to advance this purpose
the government must be of the people, by the people, and for the
people. From whichever of these men, flaws notwithstanding, we
choose to trace our roots, government is at the least necessary and
at best an expression of high moral purpose.
Government so conceived, so conducted cannot be thought the enemy of
the people. We can ill afford the prevailing cynicism that makes of
government the people’s adversary rather than its advocate. Wherever
we take our stand in the partisan divideand we here are
appropriately quite diverse in our politicswe all seek justice, and
the path to justice leads inevitably to the halls of government.
That is where this great community we call America, in its wisdom or
in its folly, chooses the policies and programs that bring justice
nearer or keep it at bay; that extend or constrict our freedoms;
that ground our lofty aspirations in the mundane details of
departments and agencies, of budgets and bureaus.
And who knows the challenge of such choices better than we, we who
so often work in the corners of the fields that are government’s
principal domain, testing, innovating, experimenting, acting
sometimes as prod and sometimes as beacon, sometimes as a megaphone
for the people’s voice and sometimes as a drum major for the
people’s march? Surely our agendas derive from the purposes and
passions of the peopleand just as surely, we cannot do the people’s
work alone. Even in times less stressful than these, even were the
people’s needs not growing and our own resources not correspondingly
declining, what we bring to the table is never more than a
fractionan absolutely critical fractionof what people expect of
their government.
Perhaps you will think it naive that I speak of restoring respect
for government, the full measure of Abraham Lincoln’s plain intent.
Respect, to a government that has so often deserved the contempt in
which it is held? Respect, to a government that depends so heavily
on hype and on sham, on spin and on bloat? Does not our natural
skepticism dissolve into cynicism in the face of government’s own
mistakes and misdeeds?
Yes, respect. From the GI Bill to Headstart, from the Marshall Plan
to USAID, from Social Security to Medicare, from the National
Institutes of Health to the National Endowment for the Humanities
and more, the always imperfect efforts of an always imperfect
government to enhance opportunity, to support creativity and
encourage education, to enlarge freedom, to pursue justice, to
improve our lives.
And now, the latest twist in our ever-changing views on government:
After the events of September 11, Americans began to view government
through a different lens. They expressed a trust in government not
seen since the 1960s. Americans seemed to like the robust public
response to our tragedy and were willing to encourage the
initiatives of our local and national political leaders.
But is it also possible that this renewed trust allowed masses of
Americans to support a war that under other circumstances would have
required a much higher threshold of proof? And could it also be that
one of the consequences of this war with Iraq is a renewed loss of
confidence in government, at the least in America’s intelligence
gathering and security apparatus? And now these many months later,
with prospects of peace, freedom and homecoming still uncertain, do
we encounter once again a renewal of cynicism in some quarters that
rises out of the very logic of the war and extends to the early
judgments of public officials on both sides of the aisle concerning
the danger the world faced from Iraq and its dictator?
That said, it is entirely obvious that if the cynicism is to be
rectified, if the contempt is to be erased, and if the dignity of
government is to be restored, more than a public relations campaign
is required. The issues at stake go to substance, not merely image.
And here, it seems to me, the independent sector will necessarily
play an essential role: it falls to us, working with both government
and community members, to guard the guardians, to make sure that
public officials fulfill their obligations and their promises; to
see to it that the people’s welfare is always at the forefront of
public considerations and investments, and thereby to help restore
the trust that a healthy democracy requires, to replace the
demoralizing cynicism with robust skepticism. This must be our task
not only at the time of campaigns and elections, but in the days and
months following, when the nuts and bolts of policy formulation and
legislation begin in earnest. That work cannot be the exclusive
domain of public interest groups. It is the collective
responsibility of every nonprofit organization, public charity and
private foundation, regardless of mission, to help forge new, more
transparent, more responsible, fundamentally more democratic modes
of connection between the government at all levels and the governed,
to renew and refresh the driving dream that has been this nation’s
ambition since the time of the Founding Fathers.
Call me a dreamer. In my view, there is no better, perhaps even no
other way to restore the true greatness of America.
And so I see in the coming months and years a set of major
undertakings by INDEPENDENT SECTOR, in partnership with many other
charities and philanthropies, to help clear a new path of
engagements between the people and their government, to set new
standards for effectiveness and efficiency and above all for
transparency and probity. I do not delude myself. No such thing will
happen of its own accord. For without an informed and concerned
citizenry, and, where appropriate, an indignantnot cynical but
indignantcitizenry, government will lumber on, for better and for
worse, unreformed and disconnected.
There is, of course, muchvery muchtalk these days of civic
participation. And I want here to add some observations to that
ongoing conversation.
When we ask of our fellow Americans that they take part in the
process of governing we also expect that they will carefully attend
to the multiple issues of our time. Witness the past six months and
the demands placed on all of us to understand the issues on the
public agenda, the candidates’ positions, and ballot initiatives,
and so on. I wonder if this is not to impose an entirely unrealistic
burden on ordinary men and women. The great American jurist, Learned
Hand, pondered this problem. He wrote of the “incapacity to
understand and deal with the multitude of questions that
increasingly call for answer in a desperately complicated world.” He
added, “I do not know how it is with you, but for myself I generally
give up at the outset. The simplest problems which come up from day
to day seem to me quite unanswerable as soon as I try to get below
the surface. Each side, when I hear it, seems to me right till I
hear the other. I have neither the time nor the ability to learn the
facts, or to estimate their importance if I knew them.” And that was
Learned Hand in 1932, a man whose wisdom earned him the informal
title of 10th Justice of the Supreme Court.
More still: Our aroused citizens will presumably express their
opinions, their interests. But what exactly does that mean? How can
one discern one’s interests in a politics that is increasingly
devoted to spin in place of truth, where advertising poses as
educating, where sound bites have replaced arguments, where hype and
sham threaten to become the coin of the realm, where K Street has
become so much more important than Main Street?
So: How can we overcome the disincentives to participation, to
engagement? The lesson of all this seems to me quite plain. It is a
lesson again and again articulated by social and political
scientists. A vigorous democracy depends on the organizations that
mediate and moderate between the individual and the government. Our
rich associational network is the utterly necessary ingredient that
enables genuine democracy. Government and business may be the muscle
and bone, the citizens may be the limbs, also the brainbut it is we
who are the nerves and the sinews that connect the one to the other,
rendering each intelligible to the other.
I cannot say that too strongly. Our sector is not an accidental
postscript to American life and the American polity; move us to the
side, and I tremble for the America that would remain. And the
reason for that is not only our shared commitment to the social
good; it is that, and also something far less abstract than that. It
is the functions we perform.
What are those functions, the special tasks of the associational
network that dwells somewhere between the state and the individual
and connects the one to the other? We provide a forum for community
members to understand the issues. We offer them a way to become
involved, to engage with the issues. We are the collective reservoir
of decades-old experience that helps inform the popular
understanding. Each organization’s first concern naturally will be
about a particular sphere of interest that defines its engagement,
but it should not stop there. For the work of building a strong
democracy of active community members and leaders is our collective
responsibility. And we must not be intimidated by efforts to muzzle
our voice or by charges that our work takes us down a partisan road.
This is not about partisanship; it is about the urgent and necessary
work that lies at the intersection of the people and their
government.
And what is our collective work? Is it not at least about innovative
policy development? And is that not, quintessentially, the work of
our foundations, those institutions that can invest the years of
research that are often necessary to develop new alternatives?
And then comes the work of translating, of rendering the esoteric
accessible, beginning with the journalists and the members of the
informed public, moving out to the wider public. That cannot be and
never has been the work of government alone. It is and has been our
work, too, and it is work that should be vastly expanded by the
organizations and agencies here represented. We ourselves need to
devise more effective methods for seeing to it that research enters
the public square, and that the needs championed by our
organizations enter the public debate not as special pleadings but
as the respected and unspun perspectives of what I have called
America’s rich associational life, of, to put it bluntly, the
independent sector.
Some of that happens already. After each of the debates and in
response to political advertising in our recent election, various
media groups published checklists of accuracy, identifying where the
candidates and their parties exaggerated or where they relied on
partial truths. Must we await the drama of presidential debates
before we develop mechanisms for restoring truth to our citizens?
Ought such mechanisms not be part of our civic routine? Can we not
promote and proliferate the various incarnations of deliberative
democracy that help communities learn and then engage more
productively? Can we not find better ways to hold journalists to
their responsibility, more energetic ways to link to the academic
community? Can we not propose new and more distinctive uses of the
Internet, with all its revolutionary possibilities? If our political
sector suffers from distemper, if our citizens are left to
themselves to discern the truth behind the sleight-of-hand, if our
democracy is less robust than we might wish and our debates are less
informed than they must bewho is there to right these things, to
heal the polity?
There is the independent sector.
I do not say that in a spirit of self-aggrandizement or
self-congratulation. I say it based not only on what I have learned
of the extraordinary work so many in this room have done but also on
the many conversations I have had this past year with people in
government, leaders of our cultural and civic and political life. To
a person, they have said to me and through me to you: We have work
to do, and there is a nation whose health depends on our doing our
work and doing it well.
So there we have itthe people, their government, and the
independent sector on which the other two in fact depend, on which
democracy itself depends. The whole rich network that every student
of America has noticed and noted that is in fact the most
distinctive aspect of our national characterand, on a good day, the
most praiseworthy.
All that, and one more issue: Rebuilding the public’s trust in
government will be a slow process. And it will happen only if and as
government earns that trust. But if we seek to be agents of that
rebuilding, then we had best look not only through the window but
also in the mirror: We, too, have a problem of trust. Gone are the
old days when we marched mostly to the beat of our own drummers,
with every confidence that no one else was looking over our
shoulders. We are now, have been for some time, for better or for
worse, objects of intense public scrutiny. And though we might wish
it were otherwise, and though we surely wish that our own scandals
had not been the occasion for this burst of interest in how we
manage our own affairs, I hasten to say that it is not, on the
whole, a bad thing and it is surely not an inappropriate thing that
we are now called to turn our attention inward, that we must now be
able to assert, accurately, that our own operations are above
reproach.
We are part and parcel of American society, of American culture, and
it stands to reason that, even as the vast majority of our
organizations have played by the rules, we have not been immune from
the ethical lapses that have afflicted both government and corporate
America. But if we are to play our rightful role in this, our
nation, if we are to fulfill our mission and our mandate, if the
democracy we cherish is to thrive, then there is no room, none at
all, for ethical shortcuts, not even by a few. Our high moral
purpose, our obligation to serve society well and our privileged
position recognized by government through our tax-exempt status
exacts nothing less. We do that not only to satisfy those who would
judge us and who might seek to constrain us; we do that to satisfy
ourselves, to unfurl a flag of rectitude for all to see and for
those who would to rally ‘round. We do that to sustain and support
one another, for the conduct of each affects the perception of all.
And what an extraordinary opportunity we have been given to do these
things. In one of the more appealing examples of our government and
our democracy working together the right way, we saw this year the
Senate Finance Committee leaders electing not to introduce
legislation before they held hearings or understood all that they
needed to about the way this vast and varied nonprofit sector works.
And having convened hearings before penning legislation, they
invited further deliberation through a roundtable discussion that
brought together a sampling of our sector to comment on various
ideas set forth in a Senate staff discussion paper on governance and
oversight. These formal gatherings, supplemented by numerous
meetings with various experts and groups, created the time and space
to share with lawmakers our deep concern regarding poor practices
and possibly illegal activities. The men and women on Capitol Hill
learned more about the voluntary sector, its structure and function,
its size and scope, its purpose, programs and practices, and its
varied systems of governance and management. Instead of rushing to
action informed by half-truths and partial judgments, these
lawmakers learned about the scores of efforts underway to adopt
codes of ethical practice, guidelines for good governance, and
changes initiated to improve sector practices and governance. They
heard again and again the plea to provide adequate resources to
national and state oversight bodies to make possible swift
identification of abusers and swift enforcement of the law. They
learned of many organizations on the east coast, middle of the
country, and in the west, coming together to find remedies to these
problems. And they paid attention to the efforts of nineteen state
legislatures to consider legislative responses to the problems that
have been the subject of public scrutiny.
And these leaders of the Senate Finance Committee made good on their
promise to reign in practices they deemed excessive in two areas of
taxpayer contributions to charities: they closed the gap between the
size of deductions individuals may claim for donated automobiles and
the actual benefit realized by the recipient charity, and they
pursued a similar action regarding intellectual property. Some of
our members protested the particular solution, asserting it may well
have the effect of discouraging these kinds of charitable donations
altogether.
The lesson that might be drawn from this small but potent action
could not be clearer. The Senate Finance committee leaders are
serious about eliminating what they consider to be wrongful sector
practices. And their solutions may even end the wrongful practices.
The danger, of course, is that where a scalpel is needed, a cleaver
will be used instead.
That said, we were relieved that the leaders of the Senate Finance
Committee decided not to introduce this year broad legislation
focused on governance, fiduciary responsibility and so forth. It is
the Committee’s intention, they say, to draft such legislation for
consideration by the next Congress.
More still: just about six weeks ago, the Republican and Democratic
leaders of the Senate Finance Committee encouraged our
organizations, through INDEPENDENT SECTOR, to convene “an
independent national panel on the nonprofit sector to consider and
recommend actions that will strengthen good governance, ethical
conduct and effective practice of public charities and private
foundations.” The Panel is to submit an initial report to the newly
convened Senate Finance Committee in February, 2005, and then later
in the spring, a final report. Even though facing great time
pressures, the charge to the Panel affords our sector an opportunity
to convene foundations and public charities, experts and
practitioners, to formulate our recommendations on how we might
improve transparency and ethical practice. And I am pleased to tell
you that the process has begun: these past six weeks have been
filled with organizing a framework and structure to gather the
various voices and ideas and begin in earnest the work of reviewing
and improving and recommending.
Just yesterday, the Panel convened at this conference formally for
the first time. The next two months will be a time of great activity
as the Panel and its five work groups do what must be done by
February and the two advisory groups to the Panel add perspectives
broad and deep in experience and expertise. And we will share our
progress with you and look forward to hearing from you.
Some of the work will not be ripe for reporting in February. It may
take until June or even September to offer sober suggestions
concerning the governance and management of our sector. And in this
rich field of ideas there are sure to be some who will disagree with
the recommendations that are offered, even how we got there. But the
Panel’s mandate is clear, the time short, and the expectations high.
All that is wrong with the sector will not be solved through this
initiative, but we will take the first steps to hoe this row,
cultivating the good work that has already been done. I think there
is room for decent confidence that we may, if we enter the process
vigorously rather than reluctantly, manage here a genuine
contribution to the nation, a contribution composed not only of the
decisions that are taken but also of the process through which we,
government and the independent sector, have arrived at those
decisions.
So here we are with these many challenges before us: restoring
confidence in a responsive government, encouraging an informed and
engaged public, and promoting a vital independent sector. And if the
challenges we have so proudly accepted sometimes seem endless, they
are surely not without reward. And if we tire along the way, we will
do well to bear in mind, always, the admonition that comes to us
from the Ethics of the Fathers: Ours is not to complete the taskbut
neither are we free to desist from it.
Thank you.
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